SSC ir SSP aktualijos

[Siberian]

I could ask you: do you agree that what russians did, was more or less the same crime as nazis?

Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Lithuanian... I call them Soviets. Because didn't you deny, that some of your people were the accomplices of the Soviet regime?

Do you agree that russia taking people to siberia and killing them there have used genocide?

Sure I agree.... as taking Russian people to Siberia as well. Those Russian people were the majority in the camps. For the communists weren't a nationality...

Do you agree that to occupie a country is a crime of war which russia have done?

I have no enough objective facts to judge this part of our history. I just know that the crimes should be judged in the times, not know, when everybody who was guilty are dead. My generation hasn't anything in common with this.

That's more than one question and i could give you some more. But all they haveone ansver.

I know what you mean. But the anwers couldn't be so evident...

My opinion. I don't support all of these vandals in Estonia for sure. But Estonian government should be more accurate in the sensitive historical matters, they knew that's really sensitive, anyway they risked.. and now we see the result.

[Siberian]

And then some of you shout "eSStonia" think twice, maybe it's ruSSia.

Actually it was usSSR. Don't mix them.

[Aug1z]

Actually it was usSSR. Don't mix them.

Are you trying to tell us that Russia is not a successor of soviet union and it has nothing to do with it's crimes?

[Aš]

Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Lithuanian... I call them Soviets. Because didn't you deny, that some of your people were the accomplices of the Soviet regime?

Controled from moscow, russia, with no choice or too scared to disagree and to be exiled? Yup there was a part of them.

Sure I agree.... as taking Russian people to Siberia as well. Those Russian people were the majority in the camps. For the communists weren't a nationality...

Yes, those who didn't agreed with the idiot of the century - stalin (and should i tell the 2nd and the 3rd nominations?). But does that mean that you can exile Lithuanians too? Does that make this crime no more the crime? Nope.

I have no enough objective facts to judge this part of our history. I just know that the crimes should be judged in the times, not know, when everybody who was guilty are dead. My generation hasn't anything in common with this.

Your generation is celebrating. So that's the common. Your generation is going on the same way (putin). So what i wnat is to make start you thinking.

My opinion. I don't support all of these vandals in Estonia for sure. But Estonian government should be more accurate in the sensitive historical matters, they knew that's really sensitive, anyway they risked.. and now we see the result.

And the vandals. Look, people came saying that Estonia disrespects the monument, but the people themselfs disrespects it more while robbing the markets, fighting etc. Do they really care about the respect? Some of them do, but that's a little part. And by the way Estonia is independant country which can make it's decisions on it's own. No need russia here. The monument was replaced with all the respect which is possible to give.

[Siberian]

Are you trying to tell us that Russia is not a successor of soviet union and it has nothing to do with it's crimes?

Sure Russia is a successor of the USSR. With all of these debts, embassies etc... If you wish Russia will share with some debt with Lithuania? Anyway the crimes did the people not the country and the people are dead already.

Contoled from moscow, russia, with no choice or too scared to disagree and to be exiled? Yup there was part of them.

Everything has a center, what's wonder with this? Even USSR has the center - Moscow...

Yes, hose who didn't agreed with the idiot of the century - stalin. But does that mean that you can exile Lithuanians too? Does that make this crime no more the crime? Nope.

It's a crime, I said it. Look a bit carefully, what I have wrote.

Your generation is celebrating. So that's the common. Your generation is going on the same way (putin).

OMG. That's the victory of liberation our country from the invaders, can't see what's wrong with this. Occupation of your country is another question weakly realted to this.

And the vandals. Look people come saying that Estonia disrespects the monument, but the people themselfs disrespects it more while robbing the markets, fighting etc. Do tehy really care about the respect? Some of them do, but that's a little part. And by the way Estonia is independant country which can make it's desisions on it's own. No need russia here. the monument was replaced with all the respect which is possible to give.

I see you're trying me to explain like I was one of these protesters or vandals. Re-read my post once again.
Cheers.

Enough for today. I will go to sleep.

[Aš]

If you wish Russia will share with some debt with Lithuania? Anyway the crimes did the people not the country and the people are dead already.

Believe me, that's not a place for your irony.

And the history never dies, the died people never come back.

It's a crime, I said it. Look a bit carefully, what I have wrote.

So if it's a crime which was made by russia we can make adecvative conclusion, can't we?

OMG. That's the victory of our country from the invaders, can't see what's wrong with this. Occupation of your country is another question weakly realted to this.

The liberation for russia. The occupation for us (including Estonia).

I see you're trying me to explain like I was one of these protesters or vandals. Re-read my post once again.
Cheers.

I see you see wrong.

Enough for today. I will go to sleep.

Have a good night

[deep'as]

Aš manau, kad mums derėtų paskirti datą ir pradėti švesti komunizmo griūtį, ne vien tik atskirai savo nepriklausomybių atgavimą lietuviams, latviams ir estams. O taip pat tai šventė ir lenkų, ukrainiečių, baltarusių čekų, slovakų, vokiečių ir ko gero visos Europos. JUk tai naujos, daugiau ar mažiau vieningos Europos pradžia, ir ta jų pergalės diena yra net ne šventė, o nusikaltėlių ir komunistų pergalė. Tikroji šventė turėtų būti ši.

[Aš]

Aš manau, kad mums derėtų paskirti datą ir pradėti švesti komunizmo griūtį, ne vien tik atskirai savo nepriklausomybių atgavimą lietuviams, latviams ir estams. O taip pat tai šventė ir lenkų, ukrainiečių, baltarusių čekų, slovakų, vokiečių ir ko gero visos Europos. JUk tai naujos, daugiau ar mažiau vieningos Europos pradžia, ir ta jų pergalės diena yra net ne šventė, o nusikaltėlių ir komunistų pergalė. Tikroji šventė turėtų būti ši.

Visiška tiesa. Priežastis, kodėl vakarų Europa švenčia dabartinę "šventę" yra ta, kad nacių žalą jie patyrė tiesiogiai. Vokietija yra šalia jų, grėsmė buvo šalia jų. O Rusija jiems tik faktorius, padėjęs tą grėsmę numalšinti. Ir, žinoma, dažnas iš jų nesigilina į tai, kad tie, kurie padėjo jiems (padėjo ne iš geros valios, o todėl, kad patiems reikėjo gelbėtis), kažkam buvo tokia pati pražūtis, kaip jiems Vokietija.

[deep'as]

Pamiršau paminėt dar rusus. Jiems tai irgi šventė turėtų būt išsivadavimo nuo komunizmo, nors užgrobus sostą Putinui Rusijoje kuriasi NEOkomunizmas.

[Aug1z]

Anyway the crimes did the people not the country and the people are dead already.

Ok, let's pretend it's like that. In this case, point us out why does Germany still even today pays compensations? Hitler and other nazis are dead, you know.

[John]

Aš, don't forget the Jews more than 100,000 of whom were murdered by the Nazis in Lithuania (by both Germans and Lithuanians). It was as much their country as of other Lithuanians. So we can't say that German Nazis were better than the Soviets... however Russia, unlike Germany, has completely failed to admit it's criminal rampage during (and especially after) the WW2... we are even hearing suggestions that USSR has "given" something to us (investments, factories, roads, etc...). That's just so bizarre considering that Russia/USSR put its foot into Lithuania ILLEGALLY! This is the point and not "which one was better"...

[Aš]

ASo we can't say that German Nazis were better than the Soviets...

i have never said this. I wanted to show that russia is more or less as bad as nazis.

[Ežiukas]

Aš manau, kad mums derėtų paskirti datą ir pradėti švesti komunizmo griūtį, ne vien tik atskirai savo nepriklausomybių atgavimą lietuviams, latviams ir estams. O taip pat tai šventė ir lenkų, ukrainiečių, baltarusių čekų, slovakų, vokiečių ir ko gero visos Europos. JUk tai naujos, daugiau ar mažiau vieningos Europos pradžia, ir ta jų pergalės diena yra net ne šventė, o nusikaltėlių ir komunistų pergalė. Tikroji šventė turėtų būti ši.

Taigi yra Europos diena

[Ežiukas]

...
I have no enough objective facts to judge this part of our history. I just know that the crimes should be judged in the times, not know, when everybody who was guilty are dead. My generation hasn't anything in common with this.

..

yes, sure

[Siberian]

Ok, let's pretend it's like that. In this case, point us out why does Germany still even today pays compensations? Hitler and other nazis are dead, you know.

So the question for you is just money, which Russia don't want to pay?

Germany losed the war, the country was judged right after the war. Nobody judged USSR. So do you think it's right to produce the accusation right now after 60 years?? Think, who will pay to the million of victims of Stalinist regime in Russia? Looks like you waited for the times when Russia will relatively weak, and now you demand of payings. Isn't it meanly?

And the history never dies, the died people never come back.

Sure. So we have not to forgive the people who were died in the times of that terrible war. It's our common trouble.

So if it's a crime which was made by russia we can make adecvative conclusion, can't we?

Sure. You may try to find those people who gave an order to occupy your country and those who were the accomplices in your country.

The liberation for russia. The occupation for us (including Estonia).

And so? What do you suggest to do? The end of the WWII and occupation is the different things. You're talking like the purpose of the war was your occupation, and every soldier tried to invade you, please don't be so snobbish and egocentric. Because MOST of the people were just defend self country and we should to respect their memory in this day. ("we" I mean Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians and other people of that collapsed country. You may not to respect them, if you don't wish for sure). So maybe you will ask Belarus, Ukraine ans some other countries to cancel this Victory day as well?

I see you see wrong.

I see that it's wrong that I posted in the thread. Now I'm answering for the acts I never did.

[Aug1z]

So the question for you is just money, which Russia don't want to pay?

Germany losed the war, the country was judged right after the war. Nobody judged USSR. So do you think it's right to produce the accusation right now after 60 years?? Think, who will pay to the million of victims of Stalinist regime in Russia? Looks like you waited for the times when Russia will relatively weak, and now you demand of payings. Isn't it meanly?

What are you talking about How can you talk about compensations from Russia when it even refuses to recognize it's terrorism in the past which was no "better" than the one of nazi Germany. You say people committed those crimes, not Russia (USSR) and the people are dead now. I'll tell you what: Third reich collapsed 60 years ago and Germany pays compensations and apologizes all those sixty years till today. USSR collapsed only 17 years ago and it even refuses to apologize and recognize it's crimes, I'm not even talking about any compensations here.

[Aš]

Sure. So we have not to forgive the people who were died in the times of that terrible war. It's our common trouble.

Sure. So you should not celebrate your crime.

Sure. You may try to find those people who gave an order to occupy your country and those who were the accomplices in your country.

But why russia don't try to find them and even award them?

And so? What do you suggest to do? The end of the WWII and occupation is the different things. You're talking like the purpose of the war was your occupation, and every soldier tried to invade you, please don't be so snobbish and egocentric. Because MOST of the people were just defend self country and we should to respect their memory in this day. ("we" I mean Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians and other people of that collapsed country. You may not to respect them, if you don't wish for sure). So maybe you will ask Belarus, Ukraine ans some other countries to cancel this Victory day as well?

"And so"? I suggest you start apologising for your crimes and agree that what have you done is a terrible thing and stop celebrating this "celebration". Who cares if the purpose was not our occupation but we were occupied. If all you wanted was to fight over the nazis so why haven't you left Lithuania then you have done it? // Ofcourse i will because those country don't need that day, just world-wide russians celebrate it and some brain washed people who think that occupying their country and killing their people was a favour for them.

[Whose Homepage]

OK my friends. It seems to me that it's time to stop ganging up on Siberian.

I agree and believe strongly that there are differences between your views of things that can't be clarified and discussed away to the point of a mutually satisfactory conclusion. You see things from your side, and he sees things from his side, and quite naturally the two sides are diametrically opposed. What one side sees as right and perfectly justified the other sees as fiendish and cruel, and rightly so. It just couldn't be any other way, and the disagreement between you is, and I hate to say it, perfectly natural and also, alas, probably insoluble (at least for the next 100 + years).

But please! He is a guest in this forum (as I am myself). He's also the only Russian here. The fact that he joined Miestai long ago and still contributes beautiful photos and threads (did you ever bother to look at one of them?) without preaching a political agenda or waving a flag should make it clear that he is not the archfiend or public enemy #1. In short, he doesn't deserve this treatment.

I think your justified anger and resentment should go not to him but to other people. For instance, see this unforgivable remark directed at our own Chukchi by a defender of Russia:

Originally Posted by kokpit @SSC:
It's a shame Nazis hadn't killed all your family.

^^ As you can see, there are many more appropriate targets for you to vent your outrage. Please don't let all your anger and frustrations over past wrongs and sufferings out on Siberian. He quite understandably stands up for his country.

He is just one man. There are hundreds of you here (and of course, given that this is a forum, that's perfectly natural and the way it should be).

I believe I understand the different points of view here. I also believe that there's zero chance of either side changing the views of the other.

All I'm asking is that you stop the please.

[Siberian]

Sure. So you should not celebrate your crime.

I should understood this earlier, that discussion with you is useless. You don't take any another opinions except yourself, or convention opinion in your society, while me trying understand you.

@ Whose Homepage
Thanks for your help
But it's OK, I'm not offenced. I just wanted to hear opposite opinions. Unfortunately people don't want understand each other even here. They talked about crime. Me and my ancestry didn't make any crime. So I haven't anything to ashame or apologize for...

[Aš]

I should understood this earlier, that discussion with you is useless.

Why should not i tell the same about you? You yourself have agreed that what russia have done is a crime. So tell me now why are you celebrating it?

You don't take any another opinions except yourself, or convention opinion in your society, while me trying understand you.

I give you the arguments. If you diasgree please tell me yours.