Holocaust in Lithuania

[vytauc]

Nice logic, but also one "but", they were criminals but also they participated in genocide, with the sole purpose to exterminate ant to take the wealth and other belongings.
It was based not on personal grounds like "briton murderer case of yours" , but solely on the basis of the race, sexuality and nationality.

You will need a lot of heads to cover up in ashes, that were blowing out of oswencima.

So we both agree that they were criminals and that Holocaust is a crime now how does it base your statements that all Lithuanians are jewshooters? Why would I feel guilty and ashamed for what some criminals did?

[DeSadas]

May I ask on which ones ?

You can not replay if you don't know because i'm just curiuos

I am afraid not Lithuanian history books, they cover more the medieval "great Lithuania" period

[DeSadas]

So we both agree that they were criminals and that Holocaust is a crime now how does it base your statements that all Lithuanians are jewshooters? Why would I feel guilty and ashamed for what some criminals did?

please Vytauc, cite the words where I said that "ALL LITHIUANIANS ARE JEWSHOOTERS" - this sentence is for the reference only and it does not imply anything.

[vytauc]

I am afraid not Lithuanian history books, they cover more the medieval "great Lithuania" period

The genocide in Lithuania is accurately investigated. There're plenty documents and books published on this matter. Try looking in a propper bookstore. Visiting the Center of Investigation of Genocide and Resistance Vilnius might help you as well, I bet they'd give you all the info you need.

[DeSadas]

So we both agree that they were criminals and that Holocaust is a crime now how does it base your statements that all Lithuanians are jewshooters? Why would I feel guilty and ashamed for what some criminals did?

They where more than criminals, because it is not the simple murder it is genocide.

[Sula]

Sorry, but it is common knowlege pal. It is written in every normal history book.

Sorry, but that is not true. Those "Einsatzgruppen's" didn't care about race, nationality of killed victims. On other hand, most of orders from German command were "understandable" for those people.

[vytauc]

They where more than criminals, because it is not the simple murder it is genocide.

Who's arguing with you here? BTW it doesn't answer my question.

[Sula]

The genocide in Lithuania is accurately investigated. There're plenty documents and books published on this matter. Try looking in a propper bookstore. Visiting the Center of Investigation of Genocide and Resistance Vilnius might help you as well, I bet they'd give you all the info you need.

Moreover it is very strange for me that nothing was made before "jewshooters" took governmental power.
It was long period of 45 years when Government had real possibility to administer real justice as well to establish real history about crimes of Lithuanian bourgeois-nationalists against internationalism.

[El_Greco]

Svajokli tu baik svajojes.Nusiimk rozinius akinius ir iseik i lauka apsizvalgyk.Jei labai noresi tai tam paciam Londone tu pamatysi labai daug rasistu antisemitu homofobu ir tt (Lietuvoi aisq jie labiau matomi nes Lt maza salis).Ir dar nepamirsk kas pries 20-30 metu dejosi paciam Londone (Apie UK nekalbu) - riots'ai - Brixton Notting Hill etc.Ne taip seniai eh?Visur yra debilu tik vienur jie labiau matomi kitur ne.Palauk biskeli ir Lietuvoi viskas pasikeis - pamazu dings visi antisemitai etc.Nereik noret visko iskarto.

[Svajoklis]

Palauk biskeli ir Lietuvoi viskas pasikeis - pamazu dings visi antisemitai etc.

As tikiuosi!

Anyway, I think that, as I have said before, I don't think Lithuanians necessarily need to feel guilty about the Holocaust (although I would automatically), however anyone who feels proud about Didzioji Lietuva, nuo Baltijos juros iki Japonijos ir t.t. needs also to feel shame about other things that happened in your history - namely the Holocaust. It's all very well to say "there was no such thing as a Lithuanian state at the time" etc, however that cannot help but seem to me excuses at a time when a process of national introspection is needed. I can understand the process - it is so hard to comprehend why people who could be your own grandparents could commit such heinous, awful crimes that you start to try to justify them from a historical point of view - which somewhat misses the point that these crimes were completely unjustifiable.

Also, what perturbs me too is this consistent habit of becoming angry at the Jews for calling Lithuanians Jew shooters. I have never encountered this at all, but what I have encountered is a populace with little remorse for the Holocaust (no, I don't include all of you in this category), an unjustified dislike of the Jews and a media which consistently belittles the sufferings of hundreds of thousands of people, all of which contribute negatively to my otherwise very positive image of Lithuania.

Anyway, I would like to find a point of unity here: an idea which has often crossed my mind is that, now that it lacks a focal point, the centre of Lukiskiu Aikste should be taken up by a monument which commemorates both the Nazi genocide of Lithuanian jews AND the Soviet genocide of Lithuanians - not to mention the many non-Jewish Lithuanians who were murdered by the Nazis and the many Jews deported by the Soviets. All suffering is universal, and I think it is time to stop obsessing over the fact that the victims of one genocide are trying to steal the limelight from the victims of another. The Jews who died in the Holocaust were Lithuanians - and although many were rejected and murdered by Lithuanians, so too were many non-Jews murdered by their compatriots, so it is time to let go of your compleces and mourn for the destruction of Jewish Lithuanian culture, and hope for its imminent return.

[Also, I think it is very nice - and also quite funny - that much of this discussion, pretty much all of it between Lithuanian speakers, has been conducted mainly in English for the ease of my comprehension. It is much appreciated ]

[vytauc]

Anyway, I think that, as I have said before, I don't think Lithuanians necessarily need to feel guilty about the Holocaust (although I would automatically), however anyone who feels proud about Didzioji Lietuva, nuo Baltijos juros iki Japonijos ir t.t. needs also to feel shame about other things that happened in your history - namely the Holocaust.

Svajoklis, you need to draw the line between things that were done by the state and things done by the individuals. Holocaust in Lithuania wasn't a product of Lithuanias state policy. In opposite- Lithuania prosecuted war criminals and never questionized rezults of the Nuremberg. That's what I'm trying to tell you.
And pointing to Didžioji Lietuva is just a demagogy

[John]

This is a sensitive issue though I prefer to take objective facts into account rather than just stay completely "politically correct" which Svajoklis prefers to do. It's a fact that many Lithuanians (so as perhaps many other Europeans during the WW2) collaborated with nazis and took part in killings of the Jewish population. As it was mentioned before Lithuanian state did not exist as such at all back then and it in no way was a policy (not to mention any official policy) of the Lithuanian state. As for nowadays Lithuanian government must act taking interests of the Lithuanian state into account in the first place and not interests of some orgnisations or individuals acting on behalf of their personal or group interests atempting to take dvantage of that. In ANY case everything must be sorted out in compliance with the law which is done in Lithuania.
As for antisemitism Lithuania is in no way an exception. This exists everywhere: France, UK, USA or wherever you look at. It's a global problem.

[Sula]

Svajoklis, I am no a fan of this journalist, but the article shows some psychosis and alive myth of "antijewish" plot of the world ("antisemitic" is strange term because most of Arabs are Semites too):

Žydų kapinių niekinimas - didesnis nusikaltimas?

http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/comme...hp?id=10001328

By the way, I have several friends from Israel arriving to Lithuania for vacation. They said that ksenophobia is flourishing even between different jewish communities. There are even riots between young jews from Marocco and Russia in their living area.

[TKO]

Wow guys! Your English is really good.

Regarding the topic of this thread, I'd like to say three things. First, antisemitism is common in Lithuania. Second, Lithuanians, who developed as a nation under very inhospitable conditions, need to come to grips with their own tragedies, with their own identity and with their place in the world in order to be ready for a deeper introspection with respect to the Holocaust. Third, the pressure by some Jewish organizations that Lithuanians atone for the Holocaust and show remorse on the par with Germans is unrealistic and does not help to improve the situation.

As for my first point, I do observe many instances of antisemitism in our country. Take, for example, this little poem a buddy of mine was mumbling the other day: Lipo zydas kopeciom/ ir nukrito netyciom/ imkit vaikai pagaliuka/ ir uzmuskit ta zyduka... When I confronted him about this poem, he said something like "oh, it's just a joke and I don't mean anything by it." However, the fact that such poems circulate in the popular folklore means that all is not well with Lithuanians' perception of the Jews. When you consider that my buddy is a relatively well-educated individual, the situation becomes even more grim. If you want more evidence about deep seeded antisemitism in Lithuania, feel free to browse reader comments in, say, delfi.lt.

Why are such views rife in Lithuania (and the rest of Eastern Europe.) In my opinion, there are two explanations for antisemitism in Europe -- first the older "they crucified Jesus" story, and then the more modern "Jewish conspiracy runs the world" nonsense. Since many Lithuanians are not religious the first story is less relevant. But the second sentiment, I'm afraid, is quite strong, especially in less educated strata. Those people have "homo-sovieticus" mentality. They look for a scapegoat to blame for their misfortunes. And here the Jews are a perfect target. They tend to marry within their religion, they are more urban and cosmopolitan, and they have produced a notable number of leaders in science, arts and business... It would be strange if Jews would not have become vilains of a conspiracy theory. This source of antisemitism, however, might be destined for extinction. As people get rid of this "homo-sovieticus" habit of scapegoating, conspiracy theories will lose appeal, making antisemitism more ridiculous as it seems to be regarded in the West.

A deeper problem, however, has to do with the perception that Lithuanians have about themselves and their nation. This perception is relevant, because it determines the place of non-ethnic Lithuanians in the modern society. Lithuanias' lot historically has not been an easy one. And thanks to the early Lithuanian historiography every one of us knows that foreigners (Poles, Russians, Germans) are always plotting our downfall and misery. It is a telling fact that the monument of Vytautas the Great in Kaunas stands on the shoulders of our vanquished "eternal enemies." However, I do not blame Basanavicius and other early Lithuanian figures for promoting this simplistic version of national pride. In its early stages every nation goes through such "childhood diseases" in order to differentiate itself from it's neighbors, to solidify its unity and to create a national myth that is essential for its survival. (Plus, history of the inter-war went a long way to strengthen Lithuanian mistrust in other nations.)

Ideally, though, as a nation matures it begins to deconstruct its early myths, and takes a more nuanced look at history and its relations with others. In Lithuania, the signs of such maturing are only beginning to appear. It is not surprising, when you consider that during 50 years of Soviet occupation the card of primitive nationalism, pagan pride and whatever was played to antagonize Lithuanians against the West, the Christianity and so on. Therefore, it is no wonder that Lithuanians do not have a relationship with the Gaon of Vilnius; we're still struggling to establish a proper relationship with Adam Mickiewizc or Czeslaw Milosz...

It is "easy" for the Germans to atone for the Holocaust -- they had fifty years to contemplate their atrocities in the comfort of a capitalist economy and increasing exposure to the world. (Not to mention a more direct, intense and historically documented involvement in the Holocaust.) We, on the other hand spent these fifty years wondering how to stay alive, and getting our heads filled with sinister communist lies. By the way, while West Germans are teary eyed about the Holocaust, the Ossies seem to be more and more inclined to join neo-fascist movements of all kinds. Note that abuse and brainwashing in the GDR was a kindergarten, compared to the USSR...

Therefore various Jewish organizations need to show more patience, while tackling issues of antisemitism in Lithuania. Phrases such as Jew-killers, especially applied to a population at large do nothing to improve people's attitudes towards the Jews. Just as bad is an over-zealous education about the horrors of Holocaust. Recently my roommate, who is a very open-minded and cosmopolitan African American, expressed his annoyance about the fact that every second show on the History Channel seems to be about the WWII and every third -- about the plight of the Jews. If an American can get annoyed by the Holocaust exposure, you can imagine my emotions when I see that atrocities of Stalin -- which in many aspects are equally (if not more) heinous as those of Hitler -- barely get a mention in the US media while the story Holocaust is trumpeted from every rooftop... Let alone the forgotten genocides in Rwanda and other places...

So one word of advice to various Jewish organizations: be careful not to "overdo" the Holocaust story and do not expect automatic remorse of empathy for it. Instead, sponsor, and participate in various initiatives bridging the emotional and cultural gap between Jews and Lithuanians. Do that gently, realizing that we, are also recent survivors of a genocidal regime. Keep in mind that there were Jews collaborating with the Communists in exterminating Lithuanians, as well as Lithuanians who saved the Jews, and be sensitive about these topics. And most importantly, remember that we do not have even a small part of the urban and cosmopolitan heritage that the Jews have.

Only if we succeed in making the two nations know and understand each other, can we expect Lithuanians to feel that the Holocaust happened not to some irrelevant Jews, but actually to their own people of the Jewish origin. Only then can you expect some heartfelt empathy... But the road is long and difficult. OK, enough of this monologue, I gotta go to sleep now!

[Mantas]

The original version of the poem is „Lipo žydas kopėčiom/ ir nukrito netyčiom/ imkit vaikai pagaliuką/ ir primuškit tą žyduką“ But I agree that this poem is antisemitic, althaugh it's the only one I ever heard.

[TKO]

Hmmm, mano draugelis ko gero sutirstino spalvas, kad pasiektu didesni efekta. Bet matai, ir tu zinai sita dainuska...

[John]

TKO, I just want to add another point regarding the rise of antisemitism in nowadays Europe (and perhaps the rest of the world). It's the situation with Palestinians in Israel (Gaza and West Bank in particular). It's not a secret that some judicial regulations regarding Arabs in Israel are in fact racist or not far from that not to mention incidents of destroying civilin infrastructure (such as power supply stations) which just makes many people angry. Isreal might have a moral right to do what it's doing (and I DO in fact support its hardline policies of dealing with terrorist organisations considering its gegraphical situation and other indicators, it seems Israel hasn't got many choices) but regardless of that it DOES bring in a lot of anger and boosts antisemitism worldwide.

[tadux]

Hmmm, mano draugelis ko gero sutirstino spalvas, kad pasiektu didesni efekta. Bet matai, ir tu zinai sita dainuska...

Aš irgi žinau šia dainušką beje man močiutė pasakojo, kad žydai macus kepa iš vaikų kraujo Ji žinojo visa technologiją: i bačką prikala vinių smaigaliais i vidinę pusę, tada ten ideda vaika ir ridena pakankamai kraupus pasakojimas... Nezinau ar ji tuom tikejo ar tik naudojo vaikam gazdint

[Jeffas]

@TKO - an excellent and thorough analysis! Would not have any argument against the things you'd said. Every nation has first of all come to terms with itself (i.e. mature) to be capable of accepting the good and bad things about its own history. I've done some small research about the collaboration of local populations with Nazis in Holocaust and it seems that the most extensive proportions Europe-wide were attained in Lithuania and Romania. It is a shame that we had (and still have) a substantial share of local masses that are easy to manipulate by various kinds of populist leaders and their strange ideologies. There's no heaven in the West or Israel in terms of tolerance either, however, but that should not prevent us from growing more mature in our percpetion about ourselves. By the way, the political tolerance of multinational Grand Duchy of Lithuania is not that much linked with people's tolerance on personal level. It is also a myth that Vilnius has historically been a city of "dialogue of cultures" (a nice political cliche for the globalized world, nothing more) - it has been a city of "multiple monologues" (Jewish, Polish, Russian, Lithuanian, Tatar communities have all lived separate and suspicious lives).

[Sula]

Ji žinojo visa technologiją: i bačką prikala vinių smaigaliais i vidinę pusę, tada ten ideda vaika ir ridena pakankamai kraupus pasakojimas... Nezinau ar ji tuom tikejo ar tik naudojo vaikam gazdint

Gėda prisipažint, bet dalis mano pažįstamų tiki šia nesamone.
Nežiūrint to, kad net keletas popiežių yra paraginę netikėti tokiom nesamonėm.
Įdomu, kiek krikščionių vaikų tokiu būdu nužudė žydai tarpukario Lietuvoje?
Šiaip jau religinės dogmos, t.t. ir krikščionių, yra gana keistos Juk mes irgi valgom "kūną" ir geriam "kraują". Jeigu kas sužinos