Holocaust in Lithuania

[Svajoklis]

Man asmeniškai labai gaila ir kraupu pagalvoti, kas su žydais buvo daroma per II PK, bet lietuvių nepasitenkinimą žydais patys žydai ir užsitraukė įvairiais savo pareiškimais apie „žydšaudžių kraštą“.

DeSadai> O koks procentas lietuvių šaudė žydus? Nemanau, kad visa lietuvių tauta turi atsakyti už kokio procento savo tėvynainių „žygdarbius“.

Sunku man paaiskinti lietuviskai: The problem isn't that the Holocaust happened in Lithuania - the Holocaust happened in many European countries, and although Lithuanians were probably the most enthusiastic murderers after the Nazis themselves (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...st/jager.html), most of those who did the crimes were long dead. However, Germany has fully owned up to its crimes, apologised for them and has gone some way to effecting justice. Lithuania, by contrast, has done fuck all...of course you can blame the Soviet Union for this, but the fact remains that Lithuania (and thus all Lithuanians) will always be to blame for the crimes of their ancestors because of their continued hatred towards the Jews (which I have encountered many times in Lithuania, and is shown above) which is worryingly widespread. Why do you dislike the Jews? What have they ever done to you? Of course they are angry about the Holocaust - the Lithuanians helped torture and kill hundreds of thousands of Jews and destroy their rich culture (which made Lithuania famous around the world) and now you continue your prejudice and hatred unabated. Maybe it seems normal to you, but to me it is absolutely repulsive - ir tai vat - jusu ivaizdis uzsienieciui.

[Mantas]

Sunku man paaiskinti lietuviskai: The problem isn't that the Holocaust happened in Lithuania - the Holocaust happened in many European countries, and although Lithuanians were probably the most enthusiastic murderers after the Nazis themselves (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...st/jager.html), most of those who did the crimes were long dead. However, Germany has fully owned up to its crimes, apologised for them and has gone some way to effecting justice. Lithuania, by contrast, has done fuck all...of course you can blame the Soviet Union for this, but the fact remains that Lithuania (and thus all Lithuanians) will always be to blame for the crimes of their ancestors because of their continued hatred towards the Jews (which I have encountered many times in Lithuania, and is shown above) which is worryingly widespread. Why do you dislike the Jews? What have they ever done to you? Of course they are angry about the Holocaust - the Lithuanians helped torture and kill hundreds of thousands of Jews and destroy their rich culture (which made Lithuania famous around the world) and now you continue your prejudice and hatred unabated. Maybe it seems normal to you, but to me it is absolutely repulsive - ir tai vat - jusu ivaizdis uzsienieciui.

You need to look deeper into this. First of all, it was a very little part of population who took part in the holocaust and second of all, Nazis looked like the saviours from the red evil and that's why more people collaborated with them, than in other countries. How can the whole population be guilty for it? Those persons who were shooting should be blamed and nobody else. And since then Lithuania didn't do anything about the holocaust? Lithuania has officially appologized (our Prime Minister did it in Israel), ex-property of the jews is being recovered and the guilties are being sued. What else do you want? As for my dislike, they insulted me as a Lithuanian and that's why I dislike them.

[tadux]

Jei net ir vienas lietuvis dalyvavo zudynese manau reiketu oficialiai atsiprashyti. O del turto grazinimo beabejo reiktu ji grazinti jei yra savininkai. Jei savininku jau nera tada tai reiktu vadinti ne grazinimu o kompensacija.

[blitz]

@Svajoklis: The crimes against Jews were not committed on behalf of the Lithuanian state. In fact, Lithuanian state was non-existant back then. Supporting Holocaust, hence, was never part of the Lithuanian foreign policy. That's why the only Lithuanians that should be blamed for those crimes are the ones that participated in them. This is different to the German case, were Holocaust was organised by the official representatives of the German nation (a.k.a. the German "government").

[vytauc]

Of course they are angry about the Holocaust - the Lithuanians helped torture and kill hundreds of thousands of Jews and destroy their rich culture (which made Lithuania famous around the world) and now you continue your prejudice and hatred unabated. Maybe it seems normal to you, but to me it is absolutely repulsive - ir tai vat - jusu ivaizdis uzsienieciui.

It is oficialy confirmed that there were up to 2800 Lithuanians directly involved in Holocaust. Does it give a right to say "Lithuanians helped torture and kill" you tell me. Commie officials who ordered to torture and shoot to death my great grandfather in Siberian Gulag and deport my grandpa behind polar circle were Jews. It's a fact. But I never blame Jews as a nation for what some scumbags that happened to be Jews did to my family. That is why I get pissed (so as many my compatriots) when people of certain nationalities call my nation nazis and all other stuff

[vytauc]

Jei net ir vienas lietuvis dalyvavo zudynese manau reiketu oficialiai atsiprashyti.

Brazauskas savo prezidentavimo laikais tai oficialiai padarė viešėdamas Izraelyje.

O del turto grazinimo beabejo reiktu ji grazinti jei yra savininkai. Jei savininku jau nera tada tai reiktu vadinti ne grazinimu o kompensacija.

Šis reikalas juda. Bėda ta, kad patys žydai ir jų organizaciojos tarpusavy dėl išlikusio turto nesusitaria.

[Svajoklis]

[Double post]

[Svajoklis]

It is oficialy confirmed that there were up to 2800 Lithuanians directly involved in Holocaust. Does it give a right to say "Lithuanians helped torture and kill" you tell me. Commie officials who ordered to torture and shoot to death my great grandfather in Siberian Gulag and deport my grandpa behind polar circle were Jews. It's a fact. But I never blame Jews as a nation for what some scumbags that happened to be Jews did to my family. That is why I get pissed (so as many my compatriots) when people of certain nationalities call my nation nazis and all other stuff

There are accounts that during some massacres, whole villages turned out to see their former neighbours being lynched - and they cheered and clapped. There is even a video of jewish men being beaten to death by Lithuanians in a garage forecourt in Kaunas, with other Kaunieciai looking passively on. Thus I can only say that this 2800 figure is revisionist nonsense. However, all that is by the by - what is disturbing to me is the anti-semitism continues to exist in Lithuania, and it is rampant. I have never encountered such hatred and prejudice towards jews (who I find to be an entirely unoffensive minority) before as I did in Lithuania (though I'm sure Poland could give you a run for your money). This does not make all Lithuanians Nazis, but given what happened in their country's recent history, it is all the more shocking that there has been no process of national recognition and reconciliation, and that anti-semitism is still widespread. When I brought two Jewish friends to Vilnius, they harboured no prejudice or hatred towards Lithuanians, but they experienced plenty in return. Brazauskas and Adamkus may have apologised, but what does that mean when so many Lithuanians continue to have such vile, hateful feelings?

[DeSadas]

Nzn bet niekas nepaneigsit kad didziausias procentas zydu buvo izzudytas butent Lietuvoje, o lietuviu inteligentija nieko del to nedare, o netgi skatino siuos veiksmus, priesingai vakaru europos valstybiu pilieciams. Sis faktas mane labiausiai ir skaudina, kad lietuviai buvo ir yra pavydi, nenuosirdi, provinciali tauta.

[Mantas]

There are accounts that during some massacres, whole villages turned out to see their former neighbours being lynched - and they cheered and clapped. There is even a video of jewish men being beaten to death by Lithuanians in a garage forecourt in Kaunas, with other Kaunieciai looking passively on. Thus I can only say that this 2800 figure is revisionist nonsense. However, all that is by the by - what is disturbing to me is the anti-semitism continues to exist in Lithuania, and it is rampant. I have never encountered such hatred and prejudice towards jews (who I find to be an entirely unoffensive minority) before as I did in Lithuania (though I'm sure Poland could give you a run for your money). This does not make all Lithuanians Nazis, but given what happened in their country's recent history, it is all the more shocking that there has been no process of national recognition and reconciliation, and that anti-semitism is still widespread. When I brought two Jewish friends to Vilnius, they harboured no prejudice or hatred towards Lithuanians, but they experienced plenty in return. Brazauskas and Adamkus may have apologised, but what does that mean when so many Lithuanians continue to have such vile, hateful feelings?

The jews themselves made that dislike (I wouldn't even dare to call it hatred) by calling the Lithuanian nation a jewshooters and nazis, so what do you expect? Do you want us to like somebody who spits right to our faces? Get real, man.

I would as well ask what way of hatred did your friends experience?

[Ežiukas]

Or what about englishman's hatred to french people then ??? I think in terms it is the same

[vytauc]

Thus I can only say that this 2800 figure is revisionist nonsense.

Nope. It's a figure given by soviet prosecutors back in soviet times. Mind you that most of the nazi colaborators were severely punished back then. The number includes those who has escaped to the west.
These numbers were also proven by the nazi documents. So I repeat- number of Lithuanians directly involved in killing civilian jews doesn't exceed 3000 people.

[chmekas]

hey, what is this argument about?
In my oppinion, Lithuania was not an antisemitic country in general. It is true that there wee few who were collaborating with nazies, but also there were many Lithuanians, who risked their own lifes and saved Jews.
It is correct to judge those who collaborated, but the bigger part of poppulation tried to help.
Dont't go in to deeper arguments, and more tolerance.

[DeSadas]

The jews themselves made that dislike (I wouldn't even dare to call it hatred) by calling the Lithuanian nation a jewshooters and nazis, so what do you expect? Do you want us to like somebody who spits right to our faces? Get real, man.

I would as well ask what way of hatred did your friends experience?

Are you that naive or what? Lithuanians(oh my god, not all Lithuanians, but those who participated in it, get over it) are jewshooters (you just have to remember the Kaunas incident, Lithuanians were so eager to exterminate jews ant to take their property, that they even did not wait for the nazis and began their own agenda on how they see a Lithuania without them).
And after what you said here, I am wondering how will you intend to demand an apollogy from russians and compensation from that they have done? they just can answer with the same demagogy of yours
The same goes with Armenian genocide, Ukranian golodomor and many many others.

[oranger]

Nzn bet niekas nepaneigsit kad didziausias procentas zydu buvo izzudytas butent Lietuvoje, o lietuviu inteligentija nieko del to nedare, o netgi skatino siuos veiksmus, priesingai vakaru europos valstybiu pilieciams. Sis faktas mane labiausiai ir skaudina, kad lietuviai buvo ir yra pavydi, nenuosirdi, provinciali tauta.

kaip tai nieko nedare?
o kiek yra inteligentu, darbininku, ukininku seimu - apdovanotu uz zydu gelbejima karo metais!
neskleiskite cia propagandos!

mano nuomone, maziau issilavinusius piliecius (kuriu visais amziais netruksta) uzrustino zydu prielankumas komunistinei Rusijai. Ir ne tik prielankumas, juk ne paslaptis, kad daug zydu dalyvavo nekaltu lietuviu tardymuose ir persekiojimuose taip pat arsiai, kaip ir 1933 metais Ukrainoje atiminejant paskutinius maisto likucius is alkanu vaiku ir nesciu moteru...

Turetu buti susitaikyta amziams (kaip tai padare lietuviai su lenkais, ukrainieciai su lenkais), ir zydai turi padaryti pirma zingsni, juk is ju lyg ir nereikalaujama atsiprasymu...

[Mantas]

Are you that naive or what? Lithuanians are jewshooters (you just have to remember the Kaunas incident, Lithuanians were so eager to exterminate jews ant to take their property, that they even did not wait for the nazis and began their own agenda on how they see a Lithuania without them).
And after what you said here, I am wondering how will you intend to demand an apollogy from russians and compensation from that they have done? they just can answer with the same demagogy of yours
The same goes with Armenian genocide, Ukranian golodomor and many many others.

Ar tu taip pat žydšaudys? Nejaugi taip sunku suprasti, kad tik labai maža dalis lietuvių šaudė žydus. Tad kaip tu gali žydšaudžiais vadinti visą tautą?

[Svajoklis]

I agree that it's unfair if anyone accuses all Lithuanians of being Jew shooters - but I have less sympathy for Lithuanians than I do even for Germans, for whilst even Germans of my age who had nothing to do with the Holocaust are deeply apologetic for the actions of their ancestors, Lithuanians, however, whenever the Holocaust is mentioned, become very defensive and start attacking the Jews (QED!) However, I think you'll find that the Jews aren't as hateful as you seem to think - people like Emmanuelis Zingeris and Dovid Katz and other Litvaks don't attack Lithuanians - they are Lithuanians! And when you mention Lithuania to many Jews, the first things they say are not "Paneriai, Ninth Fort, Ypatingasis Burys" etc, but "the Vilna Gaon, Jacques Lipschitz, Jerusalem of the North" etc...however you seem to be doing your best to ignore this great part of Lithuanian heritage in favour of hate mongering, which I simply don't understand.

As for what sort of anti-semitism my friends experienced, most of it was just awkward, immature giggling, but there were also some appalling Holocaust jokes and frightening rants, the latter of which they thankfully didn't have to experience. When my Jewish friend first arrived in Vilnius and I went to pick him up in a taxi, he was treated to a rant by the taxi driver about blacks and jews, which thankfully he couldn't understand because it was in Lithuanian (although, to be fair, the taxi driver was Polish ) Furthermore, my friends who work for the EU in Brussels have also told me how Lithuanians act strangely and conspiratorily whenever there are Jews around. And as I have said before, there is scarcely a single Lithuanian I have discussed the jews or the Holocaust with that hasn't expressed an opinion which I find offensive or downright abhorrent.

Again, sorry for my writing in English and thank you for yours.

[DeSadas]

Ar tu taip pat žydšaudys? Nejaugi taip sunku suprasti, kad tik labai maža dalis lietuvių šaudė žydus. Tad kaip tu gali žydšaudžiais vadinti visą tautą?

tiesa ta kad lietuviai pasirode "geriausiai" tarp Europos saliu, eksterminuodami zydu tautybes zmones, man tai daug pasako apie musu tautos mentaliteta.

Kad ir neseniai pasirodziusi svastika ant krantines. Manau tokiais dalykais nejuokaujama , cia reikia nuo pat mazumes mokykloje aiskinti istorijos tiesa, nes dabar kaip ir nutylima nelabai "palankus" istorijos faktai apie lietuvius, bet isaukstinama nuo Baltijos juros iki Juodosios Lietuva.
How pathetic. Tikras klaustrofobiskos ir uzsiciklinusios tautos sindromas.

[DeSadas]

Ar tu taip pat žydšaudys? Nejaugi taip sunku suprasti, kad tik labai maža dalis lietuvių šaudė žydus. Tad kaip tu gali žydšaudžiais vadinti visą tautą?

Ir taip as jauciu ASMENINE atsakomybe, uz tai ka padare mano proteviai. Manau tai tikrai yra didele geda ir tas nedidelis pasaulio teisuoliu kiekis, kazkiek sumazina ta beviltiskuma, kad Lietuviu genofondas yra niekam tikes.

[Mantas]

I agree that it's unfair if anyone accuses all Lithuanians of being Jew shooters - but I have less sympathy for Lithuanians than I do even for Germans, for whilst even Germans of my age who had nothing to do with the Holocaust are deeply apologetic for the actions of their ancestors, Lithuanians, however, whenever the Holocaust is mentioned, become very defensive and start attacking the Jews (QED!)

Sorry, mate, but I don't find here any logic to blame Lithuanians for holocaust more than the Germans As for being defensive, we as everybody in this world have a right for that.

However, I think you'll find that the Jews aren't as hateful as you seem to think - people like Emmanuelis Zingeris and Dovid Katz and other Litvaks don't attack Lithuanians - they are Lithuanians! And when you mention Lithuania to many Jews, the first things they say are not "Paneriai, Ninth Fort, Ypatingasis Burys" etc, but "the Vilna Gaon, Jacques Lipschitz, Jerusalem of the North" etc...however you seem to be doing your best to ignore this great part of Lithuanian heritage in favour of hate mongering, which I simply don't understand.

What are you talking all the time here? Who is hating? Is a dislike equal to hating? I have nothing against the jews who are goodwilling, (I, in fact, like Emmanuelis Zingeris as a polititian), but I am strongly against the people who are trying to accuse all the Lithuanian nation for what was done by some idiots who formed only 1/1000 of that time Lithuanian population.

As for what sort of anti-semitism my friends experienced, most of it was just awkward, immature giggling, but there were also some appalling Holocaust jokes and frightening rants, the latter of which they thankfully didn't have to experience. When my Jewish friend first arrived in Vilnius and I went to pick him up in a taxi, he was treated to a rant by the taxi driver about blacks and jews, which thankfully he couldn't understand because it was in Lithuanian (although, to be fair, the taxi driver was Polish ) Furthermore, my friends who work for the EU in Brussels have also told me how Lithuanians act strangely and conspiratorily whenever there are Jews around. And as I have said before, there is scarcely a single Lithuanian I have discussed the jews or the Holocaust with that hasn't expressed an opinion which I find offensive or downright abhorrent.

Again, sorry for my writing in English and thank you for yours.

Well, jews are not often seen in Lithuania and maybe that giggling was just because of their strange appearance? I can assure you that despite some shouting idiots, Lithuania generally is not an antisemitic country. And „Conspiratorily“, LOL, why should they be like that?