Holocaust in Lithuania

[vytauc]

Ir taip as jauciu ASMENINE atsakomybe, uz tai ka padare mano proteviai. Manau tai tikrai yra didele geda ir tas nedidelis pasaulio teisuoliu kiekis, kazkiek sumazina ta beviltiskuma, kad Lietuviu genofondas yra niekam tikes.

Aš neturiu už ką atsiprašinėti ir jaustis kaltas. Niekas iš mano protėvių nebuvo įsivėlęs į jokius reikalus su žydais. Tad kai kas nors bando visai mano tautai (atitinkamai ir man tuo pačiu) priklijuoti kažkokias etiketes- nieko apart paniekos iš manęs susilaukti lai nesitiki. Ir nesvarbu ar tai mazochistinių pakraipų lietuvis, ar žydas. Aš nesileisiu ir neleisiu, kad mano vaikams kas nors kabintu visokias "kolektyvines kaltes".

PAPILDYMAS. kad nebūčiau klaidingai suprastas patikslinsiu savo poziciją. Vienareikšmiškai tai kas karo metu buvo padaryta su Lietuvos žydais yra baisu. Visi kas prie to prisidėjo privalo būti nubausti, jei bausmės jie dar nesusilaukė. Bet niekas neturi teisės traukti visus lietuvius kolektyvinėn atsakomybėn. Bet kokius bandymus prikabinti lietuviams "žydšaudžių tautos" ar kitokias etiketes taip pat vienareikšmiškai traktuoju kaip priešiškus išpuolius baustinus taip pat kaip ir rasinės ar tautinės nesantaikos kurstymas.

[Didmiestis]

Aš neturiu už ką atsiprašinėti ir jaustis kaltas. Niekas iš mano protėvių nebuvo įsivėlęs į jokius reikalus su žydais. Tad kai kas nors bando visai mano tautai (atitinkamai ir man tuo pačiu) priklijuoti kažkokias etiketes- nieko apart paniekos iš manęs susilaukti lai nesitiki. Ir nesvarbu ar tai mazochistinių pakraipų lietuvis, ar žydas. Aš nesileisiu ir neleisiu, kad mano vaikams kas nors kabintu visokias "kolektyvines kaltes".

Gerai pasakyta!!! Visu 100% sutinku su Vytauc pasisakymu!!!

[Mantas]

Ir taip as jauciu ASMENINE atsakomybe, uz tai ka padare mano proteviai. Manau tai tikrai yra didele geda ir tas nedidelis pasaulio teisuoliu kiekis, kazkiek sumazina ta beviltiskuma, kad Lietuviu genofondas yra niekam tikes.

Šiaip asmeninę atsakomybę aš surprantu kaip atsakomybę už savo veiksmus, o jei tavo protėviai tikrai šaudė žydus, tuomet giliai tave užjaučiu. Manieji miškuose kovojo už Lietuvos laisvę ir dėl to buvo kankinti bei ištremti į Sibirą.

[DeSadas]

.Ir nesvarbu ar tai mazochistinių pakraipų lietuvis, ar žydas. Aš nesileisiu ir neleisiu, kad mano vaikams kas nors kabintu visokias "kolektyvines kaltes".

O dieve as ne mazochistiniu pakraipu cia tik nickas, bet mind your own businees about my bed, please it is not very polite of you.

[Sula]

tai galetu grazinti nacionalizuota turta bent jau.

O kas ir kada jį nacionalizavo?

[DeSadas]

Šiaip asmeninę atsakomybę aš surprantu kaip atsakomybę už savo veiksmus, o jei tavo protėviai tikrai šaudė žydus, tuomet giliai tave užjaučiu. Manieji miškuose kovojo už Lietuvos laisvę ir dėl to buvo kankinti bei ištremti į Sibirą.

Manieji nesaude, bet irgi kovojo uz laisve, bet tik kitoje puseje nei tavo

[DeSadas]

O kas ir kada jį nacionalizavo?

Tarybu lietuvos laikais, visas religinem bendruomenem priklausantis turtas, buvo nacionalizuotas

[Mantas]

Manieji nesaude, bet irgi kovojo uz laisve, bet tik kitoje puseje nei tavo

Už kieno lasivę?

[DeSadas]

Už kieno lasivę?

musu visu ir sviesaus rytojaus

[Svajoklis]

Sorry, mate, but I don't find here any logic to blame Lithuanians for holocaust more than the Germans As for being defensive, we as everybody in this world have a right for that.

Of course the modern generation is not to blame for the Holocaust, however despite this fact, young Germans are still apologetic for the Holocaust, whereas very few Lithuanians are - the point I wished to demonstrate is that this surely reveals something about the national psyche. However, I believe that the Soviet authorities have a lot to answer for in this respect - Lithuania was not blessed with a liberal post-war government as West Germany was.

What are you talking all the time here? Who is hating? Is a dislike equal to hating? I have nothing against the jews who are goodwilling, (I, in fact, like Emmanuelis Zingeris as a polititian), but I am strongly against the people who are trying to accuse all the Lithuanian nation for what was done by some idiots who formed only 1/1000 of that time Lithuanian population.

I am not accusing you of hatred, but as I have said before I have personally encountered it on many occasions. I don't expect you to be very kindly disposed towards those who attack Lithuania, but it is your side that must be conciliatory, as it is Lithuania that is the guilty party. However small a minority of people it may have been who actually carried out the crimes, the fact is that tens of thousands were murdered on Lithuanian soil, many of them at the hands of Lithuanians - and this kind of thing does not happen without a certain amount of tacit acceptance by the greater majority. Ergo, Lithuania as a country still carries a certain amount of blame -- just as those Russians who are still prone to macho posturing and jingoism carry the blame for their country's actions, so too those who not only do not atone for the sins of their ancestors, but furthermore keep their prejudice burning, must be accountable for the ire that this understandably attracts.

Well, jews are not often seen in Lithuania and maybe that giggling was just because of their strange appearance? I can assure you that despite some shouting idiots, Lithuania generally is not an antisemitic country. And „Conspiratorily“, LOL, why should they be like that?

These were not Orthodox or Hassidic Jews, so their appearance would have been ordinary. I have no idea why they should act like that, it puzzles me no doubt as much as it does you However, as much as I would like to, I cannot agree with your assertion that "Lithuania is generally not an antisemitic country". Vytautas Sustauskas, my personal experience and a poll which I read in the Baltic Times which stated that something like two thirds of Lithuanians "would not like a Jew as their neighbour" all seem to suggest otherwise.

Nevertheless, I do not think the situation is hopeless. Hopefully, as Lithuania becomes a modern European country, these people will put their backward prejudices behind them - and who knows, maybe Vilnius will even become once more a "Jerusalem of the North"

[Sula]

Tarybu lietuvos laikais, visas religinem bendruomenem priklausantis turtas, buvo nacionalizuotas

Tai tegu Tarybų Lietuva arba jos metropolija ir grąžina. Beje, ne tik žydams - lenkams, vokiečiams, rusams...

[vytauc]

O dieve as ne mazochistiniu pakraipu cia tik nickas, bet mind your own businees about my bed, please it is not very polite of you.

Kalba ne apie tavo niką, o apie keistą polinkį pačiam žeminti save ir savo tautą.

[DeSadas]

Tai tegu Tarybų Lietuva arba jos metropolija ir grąžina. Beje, ne tik žydams - lenkams, vokiečiams, rusams...

Lenku, rusu, vokieciu, lietuviu (kataliku, staciatikiu, sentikiu, karaimu) religiniu bendruomeniu turtas grazintas isskyrus zydu, nes lietuviai nelabai rodo dideles iniciatyvos, aisku ir istatymai netobuli ir paciu zydu religiniu bendruomeniu santvarka yra specifine. Tai yra plati tema ir reikalaujanti atskiros apzvalgos.

[DeSadas]

Kalba ne apie tavo niką, o apie keistą polinkį pačiam žeminti save ir savo tautą.

Atsiprasau, bet pas mane nera sadomazochistiniu polinkiu zeminti save, savo pilietybe, ar savo tauta. Atsakomybe as suprantu, ne kaip pastovu nusizeminima, atleidimo prasyma, o tylu, savaime suprantama, kaltes jausma, kad tokie gedingi dalykai dejosi ant Lietuvos zemes, siuo atzvilgiu manau, kad tai yra gana sveikas poziuris.
Vien tik ko verti buvo "vakaro ziniu" pamfletai apie geju ir zydu suokalby, ir nieko as pabreziu NIEKO, nei is vienos institucijos nebuvo padaryta, ar imtasi teisiniu priemoniu, numatytu istatymuose, kad usciauptu ta antisemitine ir homofobine tirada. Tai velgi parodo musu visuomenes brandos ir politiniu, ir visuomeniniu organizaciju lygi ,ir atsakomybes suvokima.

[Sula]

Tai yra plati tema ir reikalaujanti atskiros apzvalgos.

Tai būtent. Ir šis teiginys apie neva neįvykdytą restitucijos aktą tiesiogiai nesusijęs su Holokaustu. Matau, tai suprantate, o tyčia brukate.

[Mantas]

Of course the modern generation is not to blame for the Holocaust, however despite this fact, young Germans are still apologetic for the Holocaust, whereas very few Lithuanians are - the point I wished to demonstrate is that this surely reveals something about the national psyche. However, I believe that the Soviet authorities have a lot to answer for in this respect - Lithuania was not blessed with a liberal post-war government as West Germany was.

Well, I would wonder if they didn't, coz ancestors of many Germans are directly responsible for holocaust. Another related thing, how many movies were created showing the German aggression and how many the Lithuanian one?

I am not accusing you of hatred, but as I have said before I have personally encountered it on many occasions. I don't expect you to be very kindly disposed towards those who attack Lithuania, but it is your side that must be conciliatory, as it is Lithuania that is the guilty party. However small a minority of people it may have been who actually carried out the crimes, the fact is that tens of thousands were murdered on Lithuanian soil, many of them at the hands of Lithuanians - and this kind of thing does not happen without a certain amount of tacit acceptance by the greater majority. Ergo, Lithuania as a country still carries a certain amount of blame -- just as those Russians who are still prone to macho posturing and jingoism carry the blame for their country's actions, so too those who not only do not atone for the sins of their ancestors, but furthermore keep their prejudice burning, must be accountable for the ire that this understandably attracts.

There, of course, are people who hate jews as well as there are people who hate the blacks just because they are different and people are not used to them. It's a human nature. As for Lithuania's blame, Lithuania didn't have an independent government and was ruled by the Germans back then, so a part of that responsibility should go to Germany as well.

These were not Orthodox or Hassidic Jews, so their appearance would have been ordinary. I have no idea why they should act like that, it puzzles me no doubt as much as it does you However, as much as I would like to, I cannot agree with your assertion that "Lithuania is generally not an antisemitic country". Vytautas Sustauskas, my personal experience and a poll which I read in the Baltic Times which stated that something like two thirds of Lithuanians "would not like a Jew as their neighbour" all seem to suggest otherwise.

Well, even non-orthodox might look strange for people who are not used to them. And Vytautas Šustauskas, LOL, what a good example He's a drunkhead shouting idiot, nothing more.

Nevertheless, I do not think the situation is hopeless. Hopefully, as Lithuania becomes a modern European country, these people will put their backward prejudices behind them - and who knows, maybe Vilnius will even become once more a "Jerusalem of the North"

It really depends if the jews themselves want it and stop insulting the Lithuanian nation. Lithuania is not negating anything, but there are limits as well.

[DeSadas]

Tai būtent. Ir šis teiginys apie neva neįvykdytą restitucijos aktą tiesiogiai nesusijęs su Holokaustu. Matau, tai suprantate, o tyčia brukate.

Atsiprasau as nebruku, jus paklausete as atsakiau ir viskas

[vytauc]

I agree that it's unfair if anyone accuses all Lithuanians of being Jew shooters - but I have less sympathy for Lithuanians than I do even for Germans, for whilst even Germans of my age who had nothing to do with the Holocaust are deeply apologetic for the actions of their ancestors, .

They should be. It's their ancestors who legitimately elected Hitler, invented the conception of Holocaust, trigered WWII, built death camps all over Europe and so on.
On the other hand during atrocities in Lithuania there was no Lithuanian state as such thanks to Germans and Russians. It was a part of Ostland. Lithuanian State never supported Holocaust and never questionized the outcomes of the Nuremberg Trubunal. Those who participated in war crimes must be and are being prosecuted. But none has right to put some collective responsibility on entire Lithuanian nation. No way I would ever agree with that.

[Svajoklis]

They should be. It's their ancestors who legitimately elected Hitler, invented the conception of Holocaust, trigered WWII, built death camps all over Europe and so on.
On the other hand during atrocities in Lithuania there was no Lithuanian state as such thanks to Germans and Russians. It was a part of Ostland. Lithuanian State never supported Holocaust and never questionized the outcomes of the Nuremberg Trubunal. Those who participated in war crimes must be and are being prosecuted. But none has right to put some collective responsibility on entire Lithuanian nation. No way I would ever agree with that.

You're right, but I although there is no collective responsibility for the crimes themselves, there is collective responsibility for reconciliation, which does not seem to have been very forthcoming from a lot of Lithuanians.

[vytauc]

You're right, but I although there is no collective responsibility for the crimes themselves, there is collective responsibility for reconciliation, which does not seem to have been very forthcoming from a lot of Lithuanians.

As I said in Lithuanian before- I have absolutely no reason to feel guilty for anything that nor me, nor my ancestors did. I feel greatly sorry for all the innocent people who were exterminated those days and I never would justify anything like that. But puting labels for my entire nation would only make me angry. Point and punish the guilty ones, leave the rest alone.